In this episode, Fechi Onyegbule, Chloe Kemeni, and Notisha Massaquoi join us to discuss uprooting anti-Blackness in mainstream gender justice movements, designing GBV support systems to centre Black survivors, and creating communities of healing.
In this episode, Fechi Onyegbule, Chloe Kemeni, and Notisha Massaquoi join us to discuss uprooting anti-Blackness in mainstream gender justice movements, designing GBV support systems to centre Black survivors, and creating communities of healing.
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CONTENT NOTE
This episode discusses anti-Black racism, misogynoir, and gender-based violence. Although there are no descriptions of sexual violence on this podcast, any conversation about sexual or gender-based violence can be hard to hear. Listen in a way that feels safe for you. If you need support, there are resources like sexual assault support centres in your community that you can reach out to. See our list here of supports available by province.
Another resource we love is We Heal Together: A Colouring Book for Black Survivors, from TMU's Consent Comes First and Carlton University's Sexual Assault Support Centre. Created in collaboration with Casandra Fullwood, with illustrations by artists Ashanti Fortson and KeZna Dalz.
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FURTHER LEARNING
Roots and Resistance is a great webinar by Yamikani Msosa on the connections between sexual violence, state violence, and healing from collective and individual sexual abuse and trauma for Black survivors.
For more learning, see Courage to Act’s Resources for Gender Justice Advocates to Challenge Anti-Black Racism.
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ABOUT OUR GUESTS
Chloe Kemeni (she/her/elle) is currently a law student at McGill’s Faculty of Law. Chloe graduated from the same university with a major in Sociology and a minor in Gender, Sexuality, Feminist and Social Justice Studies, where she heavily participated in student government while spearheading equity initiatives on campus. For the last 6 years, Chloe has dedicated her time to supporting and developing racial justice campaigns, social policy development, and sexual violence prevention.
Fechi Onyegbule (she/her) is a first year student at Toronto Metropolitan University pursuing a career in psychology and social innovations. While attending Holy Cross Secondary in St.Catharines, Ontario, she co-founded Project Breakaway, an organization aimed at confronting the issue of gender-based violence and sexual assault within local school communities. Fechi is also a proud member of High School Too, which organizes with high school students to advocate for better consent education in secondary and elementary schools.
Dr. Notisha Massaquoi (she/her) is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Health and Society at the University of Toronto, Scarborough, with a graduate appointment in the Factor Inwentash Faculty of Social Work. She holds a BA in Psychology from Western University and an MSW and PhD in Social Justice Education from the University of Toronto. Her early career established several organizations which served Black communities in Canada, including Africans in Partnership Against AIDS, and Taibu Community Health Centre. She designed the health and research programs and served for two decades as the Executive Director of Women's Health in Women's Hands Community Health Centre in Toronto – the only Community Health Centre in North America that provides specialized primary healthcare for Black and racialized women.
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CONNECT WITH POSSIBILITY SEEDS
Want to follow our gender justice work? Connect with us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn, and visit our website at possibilityseeds.ca.
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TRANSCRIPT
Read the episode transcript here.
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CREDITS
Created by Possibility Seeds. Project team: Farrah Khan, Emily Allan, Anoodth Naushan, Laura Murray, and Chenthoori Malankov-Milton. Produced by Vocal Fry Studios. Graphic design by Kitty Rodé with elements from Arzu Haider.
Farrah: Welcome to the first season of Possibility Seeds. We're so glad you're here. I'm Farrah Khan.
We made this podcast for anyone who wants to learn about gender justice activism in Canada. We're hosting multi-generational conversations with leaders who inspire us and fuel our belief that positive change is possible.
Today, we’re so excited to have Fechi Onyegbule, Chloe Kemeni, and Notisha Massaquoi. Three gender justice leaders who’ve done groundbreaking activism in their communities. This episode will explore the importance of rest and healing while addressing larger systems of oppression Black women face.
We will explore some of the amazing work they've done and reflect on what it means to blossom in places we're told we're not supposed to bloom.
Before we get started, can you share your names, pronouns and a bit about yourselves? I can go first. My name is Farrah Khan. I use she and her pronouns. I'm a gender justice advocate and I love this work.
Fechi, maybe you can go first?
Fechi: For sure. My name's Fechi. My pronouns are she/her. And next year, I'm pursuing studies at TMU for psychology and performance acting. And I'm very passionate about activism.
Farrah: I would also say that Fechi is one of the founding members of High School Too. And also did some amazing work to start a group at Holy Cross Secondary School, where she started Project Breakaway that started to confront gender based violence and sexual assault in school communities, just casually.
Fechi: [laughs]
Farrah: Want to go next, Notisha?
Notisha: So my name's Notisha Massaquoi. My pronouns are she/her. I'm an assistant professor in the Department of Health and Society at the University of Toronto. I am a queer mom, which is the bigger, more important thing. And I love and live for all things gender justice.
Farrah: Chloe. How about you?
Chloe: Everyone's so cool. Okay. So, my name is Chloe. My pronouns are she and her. I just wrapped up my second year of law school at McGill. I'm really into policy. I have a weird thing for Canadian politics. Have been doing a lot of work in sexual violence and it's something that has helped me in my own experiences and helped me kind of navigate what it means to, to be a survivor, especially at such a young age. And I'm really passionate about Real Housewives and powerlifting and running. Those are my favorite things. I accidentally signed up for the Chicago marathon. So I have that to do in October. Don't know how that's going to go, but we try.
Farrah: So, I'm so excited to have the three of you on the show. I want to really get into even understanding how we do this work. Organizing around gender justice and inequality can feel really hard. Notisha, what brings you joy in doing work around gender justice?
Notisha: I think the thing, I mean, I love the most about it and what brought me into doing it is just the sense of community. And a lot of my early work in gender justice was really about me trying to find my people. I grew up in Newfoundland, my family immigrated to Newfoundland. We were the first Black family in the area that we migrated to in the sixties. And so, you know, going to university, well, I think first it's growing up being the brunt of a lot of injustice, particularly being a young Black woman in an all white space. And for me going to university first, it was like finding other Black people, but then also dealing with issues of you know, sexual orientation, and trying to figure out my own identity and then connecting with, I think, other women who, maybe had some of the similar experiences as I did. So it was first the building of community and then realizing that, well, you know, we have a lot of things that we are not happy about as young women in particular, as young Black women. And particularly as people who identified as queer and non-binary and you know, that wasn't the language we used at the time, but, you know, that's what we were talking about. What brings me joy is that sense of community and understanding that we can mobilize together and we can affect change and actually see change happen.
Farrah: Chloe. What about you? What's bringing you joy in this work?
Chloe: I definitely echo what Notisha said. I think community really is what helped me and what saved me. And I think especially I always, like, turn to like bell hooks and how she said that theory can be liberatory and there's like a liberatory practice. And I think the way that you can learn in community and the way that you can just bounce off ideas and knowledge is something that really helped me find out, why am I experiencing certain things? I echo growing up in a predominantly white community, but also coming from immigrant parents who weren't necessarily advocating on my behalf because they didn't know how to. And they didn't also know the experiences of what it means to grow up in a white area and have kids be racist at school, and then to come home and to have your parents out of love, you know, still kind of, I wouldn't say berate, but still maybe not uplift you or not affirm your identity or not affirm your experiences. So I think for me, especially going to university and finding folks that were doing this work, but also that were almost like we were like, reparenting each other in a way. I think it really brought me a lot of joy and now I just try to be the person that I didn't have growing up. And that to me is what brings me a lot of joy and kindness. And especially to see my cousins and my family members, like, grow up and say, “hey, like that's wrong?” Or like, “hey, like they didn't consent to that”. Or, like, use that language, I think is really, it's really nice.
Farrah: Fechi. What about for you? What's bringing you joy in doing this work?
Fechi: What Chloe said really resonated with me because it definitely, to me, is being what I didn't have or what I didn't even know to look for. And when I was a kid, like, I just needed - I needed something to drive me. Like I needed something. I was always onto the next thing, onto the next thing. And I feel that finding the space and having so many like-minded people being able to sit down and talk this through and maybe get from people a different perspective that they never understood and that they never were exposed to. I think for me, that has made a world of difference and that's kind of what drives me forward. It's the representation being in this group, I know reaching out to people, in predominantly white areas that were racialized that were little Black kids who didn't feel like even if they weren't facing these things that they should ever even speak up or do anything about it. So I think giving any sense of validation or a voice to those kids, or maybe what I didn't have that's a hundred percent what drives me?
Farrah: Notisha, you've established many organizations serving Black communities in Canada. You also lead change in health equity, social work research policy. You've kind of done it all. You've done this work for decades as a Black woman in leadership and a feminist mentor to so many, what are healing and grounding practices that sustain you and keep you going.
Notisha: My biggest advice to people who asked me how do you keep going? How do you do this work? I always say, prioritize your family, right? Prioritize yourself, prioritize your family. Because oftentimes you get caught in the need to do this work. And we put everything else aside and we don't focus on what grounds us. What brings us joy? What makes us happy? And you know, when I say family, I use that in the broadest sense of the term, right? Chosen family, right? Your whoever your people are, your community. But you know, when you wake up, if you don't have those people in your life that you have invested in, you know, their wellbeing, then all this activism and work that you're going to do to change the world is it's not that it's not going to be lost on anything, but you lose yourself in it. You have to make sure that you're grounded in who you are and the people around you and that when you come home that there's joy in your home as well. So, for me, that's always the thing that you want to focus on.
The other thing that I'm really, really solid about is when I wake up every day, I know what my purpose is, right? It's to ensure the survival and wellbeing of Black people. Whether it means, you know, the smallest, smallest things such as seeing a young Black person on the street and smiling, because a lot of our young people will walk on the street for a whole day and no one looks at them, right? Just young Black men in particular. And, you know, I'm someone who is fighting for women's rights, but I also understand that I have a whole community, in terms of identity to think about. But yeah, people will tell me that they could go through a whole day and nobody gives them eye contact or smiles. So it could be that, or you know, something where I have to sit in a room, right, with the sort of maybe most powerful people in government and ensure that we are represented in those spaces as well. But, at the end of the day, it's really important that my intent remains the same and it does not change when I go to sleep. And when I wake up that my day starts with understanding that I am waking up in commitment and service to the survival and wellbeing of Black people. And I keep it that simple.
Farrah: Fechi, you're an inspiring leader and activists pushing policymakers and school boards to do better about sexual violence. Can you tell us about Project Breakaway and what inspired you to start it?
Fechi: Of course, Project Breakaway. Wow, it takes me back. So it's been, I think a year or two, since we initially started our Instagram. And at first it was as simple as a FaceTime call. I remember we were studying for an upcoming English test and it was about five or six of us and we just got to talking. And it was so clear that so many of us have had gone through similar experiences in regard to harassment, assault stories. It was so clear that all of us in different areas of our lives had been touched by it directly or indirectly. And that kind of spurred us on to being like, we should do something about it. Like what can we do? And at first we just wanted to make this page to confront these issues and what they can look like in our lives as they are right now. Because so many of these little things fly under the radar in relationships and friendships. And just with boundary issues as simple as that and people don't even realize that the boundaries that you should be able to expect the people in your life to uphold them and not overstep. And when you're upset, because someone has overstepped one of your boundaries, that's okay. Like that's all right. You're allowed to feel upset about it. So we started this Instagram page and we're posting and it got traction. Our Mayor followed us. And yeah, it just started off with a group of girls, really. Just trying to make it, make a little bit of change in our small town.
Farrah: Chloe, you've done very impactful work on addressing sexual violence and anti-Black racism. Can you tell us a bit about this work and how you balance activism and self care? Is it a balance? Is it a meld? What does it look like?
Chloe: I think, for me, it was really important to emphasize the anti-Black racism in the sexual violence work. I think a lot of times, especially in our community, it's so hard to even identify or to see yourself as a survivor because of like what we see in the media or like who sexual assault centers cater to, or even like the staff at sexual assault centers. And it's really hard because we are so intertwined with community and community is the way that we can survive. But like a lot of times you're harmed by people in your own community and it feels almost, like, wrong to be like, this person harmed me. I'm a survivor. I don't know how to deal with this.
So when I was working at SAVIS, it was really important to kind of address policies on how we welcome in clients who are racialized, especially Black clients, and look at why we don't have Black clients. There's this myth, especially I think in the greater Toronto area, like once you're past Mississauga, that there's, like, no Black people. And like there are Black people, we’re everywhere. So we need to make sure that centres cater to that and have that. And I think at the university level it was the same thing for me. I was working to support survivors on campus through investigations as well as one-on-one support. And it was really important for me to develop policy and to have that policy rooted in anti-Black racism. And to also work with admin, to develop policies around anti-Black racism on campus. We didn't have that until summer 2020 when everyone realized that anti-Black racism was a thing and whether it was rooted in good intentions or not, it seems like there was a lot of momentum around that. So, for me, it's really important to address that.
And how I self care. I think for me, and I always say this to folks that I support, is like finding ways to stay grounded in your body and connect with your body. I think when you experience violence, it takes away from yourself and your body and it's hard to feel connected and it feels wrong to almost feel connected with your body. And it's very easy to just store that trauma in. So for me, being able to run and being able to lift reminds me of that, like, I can take space in my body. I can, like, move my body and it's not an enemy of mine. And like my body's not the reason why I was harmed in the first place. The world is so violent to Black people, that if you have folks who love you, like leaning into that and having people who can tell you that you deserve because you exist and you don't always have to be doing the most. You don't always have to be doing activity on activity to prove your worth and to prove that you bring value. I think especially if you can find folks that are always pouring into you, when you feel like you don't deserve any of that, or you haven't done enough - really hold on to that because it is so hard to just get swept into this world of white supremacy and to not feel good enough at all.
Farrah: Fechi, can you also tell us about High School Too? And what inspired you to join that national movement? And what advice would you give to parents or older siblings of high school students who want to have honest conversations about sexual violence and safety? There's such an idea that you're too young to hear this information, but I've heard you say very different high school can be so difficult to navigate. And sometimes it feels like we don't have the tools to support parents, mentors or siblings.
Fechi: Okay, so joining High School Too, a student reached out to us with this opportunity to join. And we were so excited because I know we were partnering with Toronto Met. And that's where I'm going next year. And I was so excited to be a part of it. And our first meeting, everyone was just incredible. And I remember the first conversation we had. We went away from it and Project Breakaway, we had a meeting and we talked about it and we're so happy. Like all our hard work was paying off because we had reached a point where we had people that could help us amplify the message that we were all trying to send. And to parents and siblings, family that might not think that this conversation needs to be had so young. When you look at the people that these issues affect, it's us. And it starts at such a young age and I think it can be taught even younger than high school, elementary school, kindergarten. It's as simple as boundaries, as simple as consent and respect. So I think it can be an uncomfortable conversation, but it's so important to start the conversation, so when you're in high school and in these spaces where you're interacting with different people on a daily basis, you know how to act, you know, what's acceptable and what isn't and you know what to expect and what to not accept from other people. It’s a conversation that could be handled in so many different ways with younger ages. I think it's really important to start very young.
Farrah: I love that you just demystified kind of the idea that we have to hold back information from young people as if they're not experiencing it in real time, that they're not affected by sexual violence. And some of you're doing them a favor by not actually giving them information that can help them be safer or know that they're not alone. The work that you do is wonderful.
We’re gonna move now into a section where we have questions that you’ve brought. Notisha, I know Chloe is excited to ask you more about your work around health equity.
Chloe: Notisha, in the context of community health, and more specifically the health outcomes of Black folks, what do organizations tend to get wrong when it comes to addressing health disparities within Black communities? Or when it comes to applying a social justice lens to community health?
Notisha: Ooh, that's a big one. So what do they get wrong? First and foremost, we don't collect data on race in Canada in healthcare. And who gets the short end of that are Black and Indigenous and racialized women because our issues are never, never front and center. Our issues get buried in general data that's used to justify how we fund health services. But you know, if we want to think about gender-based violence as an example, when we look at community health 82% of all women who were accessing community health services had experienced some form of violence. 82%.
Farrah: I did not know that.
Notisha: Yeah, we don't design services from a perspective of understanding that when someone walks into health services, particularly as women, right, we should be prepared to provide the service. But what we do is wait for the client or the patient to come and tell us, right. Or to come and ask us for help, right? Or to come and disclose that, you know, I'm experiencing violence or I have experienced violence, particularly sexually. So the onus is on the person coming for service as opposed to, if we understood the level of violence of women experience on a daily basis. And you know, I've worked primarily with Black and racialized women. And the violence rate is, is that high as well? It's no, it's no different. And what you want to do is develop services where I understand that disparity. So from the time the person walks through the door, everybody providing service from the receptionist, like every single door that person might touch should be able to help them if necessary. Information should just be everywhere. We shouldn't wait for you to tell me, I think I'm being abused, I need help. It should be part of every conversation that a physician has or a nurse has, or the social worker has, or, you know, we even have like our volunteers in the food bank trained to have those kinds of conversations with women, because you never know when someone might feel comfortable to have a conversation where they might be reaching out for support in any kind of way. So one of the other things that happens with those kinds of disparities is that racism will kick in for us as Black, and racialized women. So the violence that we might experience then gets tied up in a racist discourse, primarily around your communities are more violent. That's why you experienced violence, right. Or you know, your treatment of women is so repressive right, and it's your whole cultural context, I guess, that gets pulled up into the conversation. And one of the things that I for years has been trying to emphasize is that all women experienced gender based violence, how it gets expressed is different, right? So how I might experience it as a Black woman like within my home or within my community, and then state sanctioned violence as a Black person on top of that is very different, right? Then someone else from another, another cultural community. So, a) we want to understand the magnitude of the experience, but then we also have to understand that we need to get really specific in understanding how it gets expressed racially and culturally, and then design services accordingly, and also design services where I don't have to tell you I'm being trafficked right now. Right? You should have expected me when I walked through that door. So I don't have to tell you anything, but you have everything ready for me to address the violence that I might be experiencing. I wish that's how our system operated and that's what we want to get to, right.
Farrah: So Notisha named a piece that I always think about around opportunistic racism. So when we talk about gender based violence, I think that this as a Muslim woman. Anytime that I would talk about violence in my family, people would jump on and be like, I knew that those Muslim people they're so backward. How do we address opportunistic racism when it comes to talking about gender-based violence that impacts Black communities?
Notisha: I like how you put it - opportunistic racism. That's detrimental to us, particularly as women, because what ends up happening is I have to choose the protection of my committee over my self preservation. And many of us are going to choose the protection of our community. Right. Or our family members. Now, the other thing that you have to think about is, okay, let's say I do come forward. Where do I go? Because often in an attempt to escape violence or to address gender-based violence, I have to go into a mainstream system that is quite racist, is not set up to support us as Black and racialized and Indigenous women. So a), I might make that bold step to say, okay, I'm going to protect myself now, but where am I going? What are the resources available to me? Right? What shelter am I going to where I'm going to feel safe and secure, and I'm going to be treated well. What counselors am I going to go talk to? I mean, I can list all the options that are often given to us. But none of them in most cases are actually set up to support my wellbeing and my survival as a Black woman. In the gender based violence movement, we have to be very honest that it was established to protect white women. We are an afterthought. And we're still fighting to get included in the mainstreaming of gender based violence and initiatives and resources and all of those things. So, you know, a movement that is established to protect white women inevitably will discriminate and exclude other other bodies. What happens next is the question, right? What is this generation going to do? What am I in my generation going to do to dismantle that? Right? So there's two things happening, I'm dismantling Patriarchy and misogyny and all those things. But I'm also dismantling the racism that is inherent within the gender-based violence movement.
Farrah: Chloe. Do you want to add anything?
Chloe: I think we need to have larger discussions within our community and within families about violence, because sometimes you can't even go to your own aunties and moms without being gaslit into, like, saying this experience never happened. I think of, like, little examples of, like, having to sit on someone's lap and someone says, “hey, come sit on my lap” or having to give a hug to somebody. When they say, “come give me a hug” and you say no, and then it's used as a sign of disrespect. If someone says no, even if it's a five-year-old kid, we should let that kid not want to hug because that's how we start teaching consent. And it's wild because when you start having these greater discussions, now that I'm older and I have more, like, friendly relationships with my aunts, everyone has experienced violence, but it's so normalized that it's like, you know, this thing happened, but like, it's fine. Like I'm okay. And it's like, you're not okay because I see it in the relationships that you have with your husband. I see it in the relationships that you have with men in the community. And I see it, how even you view yourself, and those are things that we pick up on as we grow up.
I almost wonder if there's any point in wanting to join or any point in even aligning with kind of mainstream gender justice. Cause I think it's so violent. And I think a lot of times the state and these movements don't view Black people as human. They demean Black people while asking for their labor. And a lot of the knowledge comes from Black communities. A lot of it does and it's just reappropriated. So to me, I just find it frustrating because I think while we're also begging to say, hey, like see us as people, see our experiences, validate our experiences, like give us some of the funding, some of the space that you have. On the flip side, you're also being like, I need to protect myself and these people are harmful. I find a lot of white women in the movement think that way, where it's like, they'll be buddy, buddy with Black women to extract knowledge and then post it online or use it to apply for grants and not name any of the Black femmes, any of the Black women that supported them in that. It's really frustrating because everywhere you go it's a constant battle. But I think for me, what I'm seeing works is having discussions with younger Black women and girls who are growing up and saying, Hey, like what's happening at school? Hey, how do you view yourself? Hey, like how do you see these things? And kind of creating that space for them to grow up in to say like, oh I think this didn't feel right. Or like this person said this to me at school, I didn't like it, let's talk about it. And I think those are kind of tiny ways that we can open up that space for dialogue.
Farrah: Fechi, I saw you nodding your head, snapping fingers, feeling the conversation that was happening. What about for you? What do you see in terms of this?
Fechi: I see it's just sometimes the unwillingness to speak up and it comes from a place of fear, but it also comes from a place of not knowing that you’re in. Not knowing that there's a place where you can voice what's happened to you, what you've been through or what you're experiencing and have that met with understanding, have that met with tools, have that met with love. And I think specifically within the Black community that I've experienced, that's a part of life. Like that's something that happens, what else can we expect? You know, so I guess I've been labeled a bit of a nitpicker and sometimes I'm seen as too sensitive. I’m an empath, so when someone's going through something, I'm thinking about it as if it were me. So where people might not want to speak up. People not might not want to advocate, go after change or go after a solution. There's so many ways that we could see this problem. And we could find a way that we don't have to sit with our own discomfort. And I think that's building a culture of trust within our own families and communities, building open communication. Yeah. And just embracing people. Offering support is a big one for me, because I know that it's not easy to find in just everyone and a lot of people have been through a lot and anything else is just like, okay, like it's okay. It's just one more thing. It's just another thing that I kind of have to deal with, it shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't be that way. And there's so many things that are in place to help so many other groups and we need it too. We need it too. So yeah, within our communities, I think the support, understanding and open communication is really important.
Farrah: It's easy to get stuck when you're doing organizing work in, this is the way it's done, and this is what works. But we know that lots of different generations have different approaches to conversations from starting Instagram pages to doing sit-ins, to writing letters, to pushing policy in different ways. And that can all happen in one generation too. What's important for each of you that other generations know about organizing? Or things that you admire about the organizing the other generations are mobilizing right now?
Notisha: You know, I once was a part of a conversation, maybe we could call it an intergenerational conversation, similar to this. And a younger person than me was very upset. And they said, you know what? Your generation didn't even leave us breadcrumbs. And I'm like, what do you know, what do you mean? Like, you didn't leave any trail, like no rule book, no information so that we don't have to repeat the same things over. And I always remember that, you know, that's the least you can do. I think when I started becoming very involved in gender-based violence, the thing that we were focused on was, you know, here we are empowering ourselves, but we're not educating our mothers. Right? So we were very focused and very selfish on, okay, let's make sure we're okay. But we weren't looking out for the generation above us, but I also think, you know, you have to always make sure that you leave some kind of platform or something for the people coming behind you to stand on. And then oftentimes what we do is we get tired and burnt out from doing this work and then we just disappear. The way that people are mobilizing now, and you're not just thinking about yourselves and my little space, you're thinking about the bigger picture and you're connecting with global movements and you're not just thinking about those of you that have the privilege of voice and resources, but how do I make sure that we're taking everybody with us? And, you know, that's something that I could say my generation did not do in any kind of way, or we were very focused on, you know, those of us that had the courage and the ability to speak out, and we would be the ones that would be the leaders and not really necessarily making sure we went into all the cracks and crevices to make sure every single member of our community was going to be affected by the work that we were doing.
It's important that we historically understand what happened before us. It's important for us to understand the context of what it means to be Black and experiencing gender based violence in Canada, right? Like let's get really grounded in what our experiences here. And it's really important for us to look at ourselves as not just immobilized victims of this system, that we have a lot of agency, a lot of autonomy. And when we work collectively, we actually have a lot of resources that we can use to mobilize ourselves. And I think that's what your generation has been able to harness. And how do you use that effectively and strategically?
Farrah: Fechi, Notisha has a question for you. What would you like to see in terms of organizing and tools that you are really inspired by the elder generations have done, or their people have done that fuel your work.
Fechi: I'd say definitely the people that are within the organization that you're working with, having them kind of speak to specific scenarios that they have experienced and break things down in, in ways that other people can kind of understand, having real life issues, being brought into ways that everyone can understand at each different point in their life because we were met with all these big words and terms, and it was hard to break down to some people so they could understand. I mean, we were talking to people that are coming into grade nine and we were talking to 15 year olds, 14 year olds, 13, 12, that were coming and talking to us and so much of what they were experiencing they didn't know, that it, it can be considered as sexual assault, sexual harassment coercion, all of that, and kind of breaking that down and using whatever little platform we had to get people to understand. The point that we were trying to get across, I think was an amazing tool. Having that, having that kind of in our back pockets to pull out was huge. Social media has been crazy. Just sticking to it, cause I know it's been hard. I know we started off with a massive group of girls and it really, it really narrowed down. Forming deeper connections with the people that you're working with. So, you have each other's back. So when you're going out into the community to try and make change the people that you're working with have your best interests at heart, it all just helps. It just really makes the experience worthwhile to me I think.
Farrah: Chloe. What about for you?
Chloe: Don't forget who taught you. So I think it's always important to remember that there was maybe somebody or several people or a group that, like, took you in and gave you the time and to develop the knowledge and to, and to teach. I think also sometimes with like the professionalization of like sexual violence positions through like institutions and just seeing it more be becoming a norm I think sometimes folks kind of want to run to position themselves as the sole knowledge holder and it's not true. And you should be always talking about and thinking that people who took the time to, to really give you that knowledge and to pass things on. So I think for me, it's really always remembering, like at one point you didn't know anything, so now you know something but there's many people who know more and less and that's how I kind of tried to center myself.
Farrah: That reminds me of the whole campaign around cite Black women.
Chloe: Yup. Yup.
Notisha: Yeah. But I think it's also important to, you know, we have to acknowledge the people who taught us, but understanding that sometimes my greatest teachers are very young, very young people. It's not about age often, you know, our language and experience in something might come later. I have a ten-year-old who teaches me all the time, who challenges me and sometimes our teachers are much younger than us. Right? If I want to understand what the experiences are of youth and young people, I don't think about what was it like when I was young, right? I go and talk to someone who's having that experience now. So then they become an expert in their lives, not my recollection of what it was like to be a young person. That's dated, it's done. It's over. I'm not young anymore. So I think it's also really important for us to understand that we're positioning expertise, not based on age or wisdom is not necessarily based on old age. So I hope, I hope you all realize that your leaders and your understanding of your world right now. It's just as valid as my experience. But you know, sometimes we value one over the other and I think that's a big mistake that we often make. And I don't want to say it's just, that's just Black community, but you know, we do have hierarchy in terms of eldership and whose voice is valued and who gets to be the leader and whose truth is more important. And we also have to disrupt that as well.
Farrah: I have one last question for y'all. At Possibility Seeds, our work is built on dreaming new visions of gender justice into existence. What possibilities are you dreaming of right now?
Fechi: Definitely open conversations about consent making these conversations that are so taboo. And so, you know, just kind of avoided unnecessarily, having those being central in all different types of relationships, friendships, family members. I would love us to just all look out for each other.
Chloe: I like the way that Fechi put it with open communication. ‘Cause I think for me, it's like a community with no secrets and a community where folks can just say, this has happened to me. And I just think so many of us within our community walk around with so much shame that's internalized and it manifests in other ways. And it's not until you maybe find people or a person who can like tell you, you don't have to walk with that. Many years in life often when you have access to therapy or just your in a new relationship and things like that. And I don't think in a world where I'm dreaming, I don't think that everyone should have to access outside resources like therapy to always be able to find ways to navigate that shame or to unload that shame. So I really am dreaming of just a community where there are no secrets and there's accountability and people can walk in whatever path they want to, without feeling the need to hide or going against the grain. And I always think of, like, Issa Rae, like, awkward Black girl where it's like, if you're an awkward Black girl, like, walk in that. And I want a world full of all types of Black girls that are just like doing and livin’ life and feeling competent in that.
Notisha: You know, something, I think that Chloe said that I was like, yeah, we gotta stop that. It's that belief that experiencing gender-based violence is inevitable, right? We've all experienced it. We survived. It's going to happen. Just deal with it. We really have to get out of that mindset. I have many dreams, but I think talking to Chloe and Fechi today, really hit me that no, we shouldn't be growing up in a world where people don't have the language to support someone who is experiencing violence and that we have to move our community out of this belief that well it's inevitable, right. Is just something that your mother experienced it, your grandmother experienced it. Of course, you're going to experience it. Let's start there. So maybe that's where my dream starts, that we get rid of that attitude.
Farrah: I hope that saying these things out loud will bring these dreams even more into existence together. I cannot thank the three of you enough for being part of this conversation. Chloe, Fechi, and Notisha, you all are already creating amazing new possibilities for people in the community. Thank you for the work that you do and thank you for this time
Notisha: Oh, it's been an absolute honor to meet both of you.
Fechi: I‘m so lucky to have met you.
Chloe: [laughs]
Notisha: And I hope you understand how courageous you are because I can't imagine myself as a high school student doing the work that you were doing at that age and the difference that you're going to make for people younger than you. I can retire now Farrah, that's essentially what's happened now.
Farrah: That's the point of doing these podcasts you know, it's not about telling you “you’re old”. It's actually saying there's people that are coming that are going to make it easier for you to take a break. I feel really honored to have the opportunity to work with all three of you in different ways.
Notisha: Thank you Farrah.
Farrah: And now maybe you can hang out with each other.
Thanks so much to our guests for joining us today. And thank you for listening. We hope that what we talked about today will inspire you to plant seeds of change in your own communities. Visit us at possibilityseeds.ca and follow us on social media @PossibilitySeeds.