In this episode, Radhika Gupta and Deepa Mattoo join Farrah to discuss intersections of gender and migrant justice, their different experiences as South Asian women, challenges that international student survivors face on Canadian campuses, and their shared love of dance.
In this episode, Radhika Gupta and Deepa Mattoo join Farrah to discuss intersections of gender and migrant justice, their different experiences as South Asian women, challenges that international student survivors face on Canadian campuses, and their shared love of dance.
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CONTENT NOTE
Although there are no descriptions of sexual violence on this podcast, any conversation about sexual or gender-based violence can be hard to hear. Listen in a way that feels safe for you. If you need support, there are resources like sexual assault support centres in your community that you can reach out to. See our list here of supports available by province.
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FURTHER LEARNING
For a comprehensive resource on supporting international students affected by GBV, see Courage to Act’s toolkit, Supporting International Students Affected by GBV: A Customizable Tool for International Students, Post-Secondary Administrators, and Frontline Workers.
MOSAIC BC also has a wonderful International Student Safety Guide specific to gender-based violence.
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ABOUT OUR GUESTS
Radhika Gupta (she/her) is a creator, educator, and speaker whose work focuses primarily on harm reduction + prevention of GBV, mental health education + de-stigmatization, menstrual justice and education, and creating open, accessible movements and information. We’re lucky to have Radhika involved in Possibility Seeds’ Courage to Act project as part of our International Students Community of Practice. She has also worked with the UTSC Women’s & Trans Centre, Bleed the North (an Ontario-based menstrual rights organization), and now Creating Freedom Movements in the Bay Area.
Deepa Mattoo (she/her) is currently the executive director of the Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic. Her work revolves around the criminalization of women, sexual violence and the precarious status of women, risk assessments of gender-based violence, as well as interdisciplinary case management. She has represented hundreds of clients at tribunals and courts including the Supreme Court of Canada; and has trained thousands of service providers for best practices and legal education to work with forced marriage survivors, racialized non-status women, and immigration law clients.
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CONNECT WITH POSSIBILITY SEEDS
Want to follow our gender justice work? Connect with us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn, and visit our website at possibilityseeds.ca.
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TRANSCRIPT
Read the episode transcript here.
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CREDITS
Created by Possibility Seeds. Project team: Farrah Khan, Emily Allan, Anoodth Naushan, Laura Murray, and Chenthoori Malankov-Milton. Produced by Vocal Fry Studios. Graphic design by Kitty Rodé with elements from Arzu Haider.
Farrah: Welcome back to our last episode of Possibility Seeds. We're so glad you're here. I'm Farrah Khan.
We made this podcast for anyone who wants to learn about gender justice activism in Canada. We're hosting multi-generational conversations with leaders who inspire us and fuel our belief that positive change is possible.
Today, we're so excited to have gender justice advocates Deepa Mattoo and Radhika Gupta with us to talk about their experiences advocating for themselves and others as international students. We’ll talk about the many gaps in infrastructure and services available to international student survivors on campus, and what their unique needs are.
We will explore some of the amazing work they've done and reflect on what it means to blossom in places we're told we're not supposed to bloom.
Before we get started, can you share your names, pronouns and a bit about yourselves? I can go first. My name is Farrah Khan. I use she and her pronouns. I'm a gender justice advocate and I love this work.
Deepa, tell me about you.
Deepa: Hi Farrah. Thank you for inviting me. My name is Deepa Mattoo. I use she and her pronouns. I am also a gender justice advocate. I'm a lawyer by trade and a full time Executive Director of an organization and volunteer in many spaces and working with international students is one of my favorite issues to advocate for. I'm also a mother of a 16 year old fierce feminist.
Farrah: And also an amazing dancer.
Deepa: Thank you.
Farrah: Radhika, Do you want to tell us about you?
Radhika: I would love to. Thank you. So my name is Radhika or Rads. I use she/her pronouns and I am also a gender justice advocate. I like to describe myself as a lifelong student and full-time friend. But right now I'm an undergraduate international student at the University of Toronto Scarborough campus. I also have a lot of interests in a lot of different areas, mainly in regards to gender justice, menstrual equity education, mental health education and destigmatization. And I’m very excited to be here today.
Farrah: Also an amazing dancer.
Radhika: Thank you!
Farrah: I look forward to a crossover after this on TikTik, whole conversations about gender justice advocacy and dancing. I think it's going to be amazing.
Radhika: Already planning the email!
Farrah: So as we know, doing any kind of organizing around gender justice harm and inequality can feel really daunting, heavy and hard. You both have been doing this work in a really hard time and our COVID and even prior to what sustains you in this work and what brings you pleasure or joy while doing this work?
Deepa: I've been asked this many times and, and sometimes I wonder if people heard all my answers, would they all be the same or evolving? I feel like evolving would be the right way to go about it because as radical as saying that, you know, we all have some life models and mine is that I'm a work in progress. So what sustains me in this work, which is so heavy, is full of grief and pain, I think knowing that I don't know everything, that I have yet to learn more. I truly, truly feel like I signed up for a journey. I did not sign up for easy. So that's a good reminder. Every time I find myself in a difficult situation, I’m like, “it's okay, Deepa. You did not sign up for easy”. Right? So, knowing that really has, uh, helped me and you need a village to do this work. You can't do this work alone. And, Farrah, I know that you and I have done so much of this work together, so we could not have done what we do every day without the support of the community and the village that we, we live in.
What brings me pleasure or joy while doing this work? I think as long as I see the smile on the face of the survivors, and as long as they are extending a hug to me and they are there to lead the fight, I think that's just the joy. And in this work, we lead with joy and love. And I think that's not talked about enough by people. I think a lot of us, we didn't come to this work just because we wanted to be part of a change. We came to this work because we truly believe in love and we truly believe in joy. And we truly believe that that world is possible. So that's what I think sustains me. And then sometimes people ask me, why do you do it? I'm like, I don't know what else to do. Like I don't think I would do anything else. This is it.
Farrah: And Radhika, for you, is this movement based on love? What finds pleasure for you in it? What do you find joy in this?
Radhika: I feel like I'm going to be echoing a lot of what Deepa said, because that really resonated with me. I'll start by saying it's the community around me, the community that I get to work with. Again, I think a lot of folks are in this work, yes, because they care and they want to make a change. And because they believe that it can happen. And that's really powerful to me. I also, a lot of times in random Lyft rides or on the bus, folks will be like, “oh, so what do you do?” And I tell them, “oh, I'm in gender justice work”. And they're like, “oh so you're not trying to be rich”. And yeah, you know, it's a blunt, but common reaction I get, and I guess it's true, you know, I'm not in this for fame or money I'm here because I believe that we can make a change happen. And that's what I want to do. And I think there's been such a long legacy of work before me. I'm really inspired by the folks around me. um, I learned from them what they've found healing, how they make sure that their work is yes about justice, but also about joy and since you mentioned dance, uh, that brings me joy. So that's something I try and squeeze in on especially the harder days.
Farrah: I love that you brought up the ways that you nourish yourself and also the ways in which this movement nourishes you. Cause I think that's a piece right? Holding both, holding the joy that we get from it, and also the joy that we bring to keep us going.
Radhika, you've done such incredible work with University of Toronto Scarborough campus women and trans center, and also with Bleed the North, this amazingly rad menstrual justice organization. What are, kind of, the things that you see as tactics and tools and actions that you are the most proud of in your organizing on campus?
Radhika: I feel like I could talk about this for ages. I'll start by talking about the Women's and Trans Centre. So we are a nonprofit student run organization and, uh, there are many pillars, I guess, that inform our work. But we really want to make sure that our work is, you know, informed by intersectional feminism and also that our work is open and accessible and joyful for people. I feel like, in academic circles, there can be a lot of unintentional inaccessible language or resources and tools created. So I've really tried to center accessibility in my work. And I guess I'll bring up one of the tools that we've created at WTC this year, it’s called the WTC Resource Directory. And it is an ever-evolving directory of virtual campus and community resources. So we have healthcare, we have queer specific health care, we have sexual and or abortion related healthcare. We have labor resources for student workers, international students, sex workers. One of the main concerns students bring up like, “hey, our professors list all these resources, but they're all over the place”. There's no one place to find all this information. So just really having conversations with the community, trying to figure out what is needed and what is lacking. And a lot of times I find that it's a communication issue from where the resources are being created and who they need to go to.
Farrah: It's such an important resource I've seen in myself. I love that. Also. It makes it more accessible for people to know what they can use in their communities.
Radhika: Thank you so much. It is definitely a labor of love.
Farrah: Deepa, the work you've done at the intersection of law, social work policy, legislation reform, so much, especially around gender-based violence and family violence has been so impactful. You started all this many years ago when you were an international student, but also back in India when you were working there. Deepa, I wonder if you could share with us what's possible now in organizing that you didn't think was possible when you started doing this work.
Deepa: When I started out in UK first and then here in Canada, I used to find myself very lonely during that time. The lack of understanding of intersectionality, the terminology itself, and how you had to take care of white folks in the room while doing your advocacy. It was really challenging. Finding another South Asian woman in the room used to be like, oh my God, I would run to them and hug them just because they were South Asian. Things have shifted. We are many, many more of us now together. That is the beauty of currently organizing, right? Like you have mentors that you can go to over two, three generations doing this work. The visibility has improved, the accessibility to the people has also improved.
What used to happen during that time when I started doing this work was that it was really easy to connect with people because the connection were in person, and the connection were very at the basic level of understanding of that I trust you just because you are in the movement. So that trust building that was so much more easier back in the day - because of the social media, because of the complexity of the various ways of communication, it has changed. There is a lot more scrutiny. And I think that we didn't have to worry about that. I think we were a little bit of more free birds. We could pick it and pick up like blackout and just demonstrate anywhere without this worry of who is watching me. And am I being scrutinized for everything that comes out of my mouth? Right. You have to be watching yourself a lot more. You're more careful. You're also, the space for each other. We actually make sure that we have each other's back, which we used to have back then too, but now it's become a bit more complicated and complex. So I feel like it is a two way street and I hope that as we evolve we can actually go back to some of that in-person picketing style organizing and be there in person more because I feel there was value in that.
I always say that the original Me Too movement actually happened at that time, we were actually informing each other, talking to each other a lot more in person, and there was also more love and joy in that. I mean, we were talking about the theme of love and joy and there was also this sense of how insignificant I am. It's that realization was a lot more live and real. Unfortunately, social media creates this farce as if we are doing something, which is a bit more glamorous, right? So that farce of glamour that social media has given to the activism is something that I feel was not there. And we were all more connected in that significance of love and joy of the work that we were doing. But there are some other amazing things that are happening in current time, Indigenous solidarity. Those pathways that are getting created, which used to happen in very small pockets, those, um, those into that intersectional lens that solidarity among BIPOC folks, and solidarity among issues. So there was a time when they were all happening in their silos. And, but we can see that because of the current environment, those things are coming together and there is a lot more intersectional analysis arising and happening.
Farrah: I think it's so important when you're naming, and what I'm hearing is, there was a time and you're organizing and I'm not going to date you, but you know, in the nineties and the early two thousands, let's just be real. And those times were before social media, you would meet up at a coffee shop, meet up with your people. Like I remember doing that, seeing you at things and then we would go March and we wouldn't have to post a photo about it. And it, and it also felt like people didn't always have to know if you were there, but we were there. And so sometimes that's also about anonymity and having safety around that. I know as a queer person doing organizing around queer Muslim stuff, I wasn't always so out and open. So I was able to do the organizing pre-social media in a way that felt safer for me. And it shifts a lot when we have things that you have to be so much about documentation of an archiving of it and who we are archiving it for.
Deepa: Absolutely. And who's watching is the piece right then, because then that creates these invisible barriers around what you can be doing, right? And again, not to simplify that there is a complicated reality of that. This is the way we people organize now, and this is the way people tell their story now. I just feel that back in the day it was simpler. It was not this complex. It had its own complexities. As we were fighting for the space a lot more than now, we can create our own space. Right? So, there is an access to this space that we are able to create as compared to literally fighting for space back in the day. So I am not saying one is better over the other, but I feel like there is a learning from both that we need to keep in perspective, as we evolve in the movements.
Farrah: For both of you with that kind of piece around movement, around organizing, how does that impact as international students doing gender justice work? Can you be as open about the organizing that you do? What ways does that create barriers in terms of the ways and tactics that are currently being used and what are tactics that international students are doing that might not be seen, but we need to bring into the light.
Radhika: As an international student myself, and I guess I'll touch on again on what Deepa was saying, while acknowledging that it has its shortcomings and issues, I do find that the internet and the communities that I've been able to find online have been powerful at least for, in terms of, I think, connecting and strategizing together. For understanding how folks go about finding and building community. And I think you can take that knowledge from offline and apply it into your own community, because I do think there are limits to online community. I did grow up largely on the internet. I think I first became familiar with a lot of theory and praxis through Tumblr and this blog called “Saved by the bell hooks” that had screenshots from this TV show I loved and had incredible quotes from this intelligent, wonderful leader and revolutionary bell hooks. And that allowed me to really learn a lot of the terminology, learn about people who had been doing this work, and realize that I'm not as alone as I may feel. There are people who care about this and people who want to do this and have done this before.
I do also feel that there is a level of scrutiny. There's also a level almost of distillment, I think, of social movements. In hopes of making it accessible, sometimes we can oversimplify or not fully communicate what we need to be communicating. We were talking about the Me Too movement. That is a powerful, wonderful movement, that to my knowledge has been happening really since the early two thousands, at least. But to this day I see publications date it as starting in 2014 with Alyssa Milano's tweet. And we know that's not true, but I think the internet even unintentionally can help co-opt movements without getting too off track. I've seen a lot of folks using the hashtag He Too, in regards to a current case that has been popularized in media and it's frustrating. I think seeing that a tool that, for me, has brought so much knowledge and community and joy and power to me is also been weaponized against the very same communities that it aims to uplift.
Farrah: International students, oftentimes their labor, their organizing, their experiences are not always reflected in gender justice movements and the work to end gender based violence. How do you think that should change, and what are the ways you want to see it happen?
Deepa: I can respond from my perspective and then I would love to hear from Radhika who's working with students on the ground currently. International students, and when you are so precarious in your immigration status in the country, and when you are so temporary, if with your immigration status that precarity and the temporariness brings about some structural and systemic barriers to how you want to be known or seen and organize, right? And, again, unless and until you meet that village of community of people who can support you in that journey, a lot of your, a lot of your thought processes or a lot of your activism actually is kind of happening in smaller pockets and also happening a little in a way you're hiding it because you don't want, you don't want to run into an immigration problem.
So I remember me and a couple of my colleagues used to really strategize who would be on the front line on an issue because who would be hearing, right? Like, you don't have your full status now. So, let's create some solidarity bubble for you so that you are still there, but someone else can be the leading voice. So that immigration status, as it intersects with your, with your many capacities of civil engagement that civic engagement piece is really real for international students when they're organizing for their own rights as well, or when they're talking about gender-based violence or they're talking about basic human rights infringements that happened with the community.
Saying that when I came as a mature student and with added on responsibility of also raising a family I think my experience was very different. I was in UK as an international student for almost two years, and then I came to Canada, I was very lucky because I was always able to find that community of people who I could, uh, organize with or with, for whom I could advocate when I had the opportunity to advocate. Or they could advocate for me when they had the opportunity to advocate. And that solidarity and that sticking together is so important always, but especially when you are a precarious immigration status person.
In terms of what I am seeing now, and unfortunately what I'm involved in now in my volunteer capacity, I'm supporting an organization, which is a very small effort in the Peel Region to support some of the Punjabi international students. And the experiences that I am observing right now, it really breaks my heart because it's like that, that community, or that village that, that, you know, which could hold you and give you space to learn, unlearn, exist, organize and voice your concerns and advocate is getting reduced. It's really breaking my heart because now I'm at the age where my child is going to be part of that community soon, right? She will be part of that student community and there is so much more pressure to do part-time jobs and the expenses, either the tuition fee or your own living expenses are so high. So if you're coming from a marginalized community or you're coming from a low income family as an international student, those very basic challenges are so enormous that I find that finding those pockets where you can actually amplify your voices is becoming even more difficult. I would love to hear from Radhika, who is part of the community from the other side, like what is she seeing?
Radhika: Yeah, I joined Possibility Seeds as part of the international students community of practice, and the toolkit we created is a customizable FAQ tool guide. A lot of the concerns that I had noticed, as an international student from America did not necessarily experience, was there is a lot of fear and different understandings of what constitutes gender-based violence. We wanted to be clear, again, that it is never the survivor's fault. It is always on the person enacting the violence, perpetuating the harm. We wanted to reaffirm that survivors should not have to worry about retaliation in their home countries. That if they make a report here, it would not be sent to anyone in their home countries. That confidentiality, what that means, what that covers, how that's respected and insured here. I realize increasingly that, you know, it's, it's very important to kind of account for the different knowledge that we may be coming into this space and into these communities with.
I also think there is the legal and financial aspect of a lot of international students are here on student visas. Many folks do not have work visas, which largely means that you're only allowed to work on campus. For many of the international students I know who are survivors there, trauma happened on or was very closely related to campus. So that can make participating in classes hard, that can make working difficult. If your only options are on campus that can put you in a very precarious situation. If your visa is set to expire... I mean, I personally can speak to that. My visa was granted to me for five years and I did have to reapply because, due to personal circumstances, I took time off and wasn't able to complete things in the timeline that I had originally estimated. And I think that can cause a lot of fear and stress. I think applying for all the immigration paperwork is never easy, but especially in COVID, there's that added layer of delayed processing times, are we as international students being, maybe put on the back burner at all? Those are some of the barriers I've noticed. I will also say though, that international students in my experience are resilient and always seem to find and create community for each other, which I've really appreciated and benefited from.
Farrah: I'm really glad that you pinpointed for us the institutional and governmental barriers that have been created to make it unsafe for international students to access support sometimes to feel safe on campus, to be feeling safe in the community, which is really important to name. I also really appreciate it for both of you just seeing how it's different for different communities within international students. I, myself working as a frontline worker on a campus, we see a lot of times international students being fearful of reporting because of their visa and worrying about, okay, if I take time off of school, then will I have my visa extended because I'm worried that if I take the time to heal, then I won't actually finish the school in the timely manner that I'm expected to by the state. There's a lot of barriers that are so systemic that they're beyond what an international student individually can address by themselves. And that's why, I guess the whole piece you've both been talking about, which is solidarity community and building a movement around this is really key.
We’re gonna move into a section where we have questions that you brought. Deepa, maybe you can start us off. What question do you have for Radhika?
Deepa: So Radhika, I was wondering where has been your focus? Are you focusing on pursuing voice, and find that voice that you don't have, or people who you're advocating for those have? Or are you wanting to influence the change, or are you wanting to do them both? Is it important to voice and get case by case support? Or is it important to influence and bring about a broader systemic change?
Radhika: I'd say both. I think they both interact and matter in such powerful ways. I think having a voice and being able to share your story and your experience is a wonderful and powerful thing. I think having as many voices and experiences as possible is always beneficial. I feel like we can only ever learn from that. I definitely try to listen to the voices around me. I try to ask myself whose voices may be missing or not heard. How can we bring those voices into that space? Now that we have this knowledge and these experiences, and we've heard these voices, how are we going to use that to enact and influence change?
Within creating change there are so many different levels. You can look at the systemic level. Do we want to petition certain institutions to make things more accessible? Do we want to petition the institution to change the language of the sexual harassment policy to say survivor instead of complainant? Do we want to create resources, you know, really at the ground level. Maybe it's about securing safe housing for a survivor. Maybe it's about making sure they have the groceries and the food they need. Maybe it's about making sure they don't have to worry about cooking dinner right now. They can just focus on taking care of themselves in whatever way that needs to be. I think I am interested in pursuing voice and influence, any and all of the above. Intersectionality seems to be the word of the hour.
I’d love to actually flip it around and ask you a question now. Before stepping into your current role at Barbara Schlifer Commemorative Clinic, you did work in several other capacities and with other organisations, mainly the South Asian Legal Clinic of Ontario. How do you ensure you are catering to the needs of such expansive communities with various intersecting identities?
Deepa: It's a really good question because I did focus for almost like over a decade of my work within my own community, which I understood. But I think what is really, like, a point of reflection is that the South Asian community in itself is so diverse. That, although I focused a lot more on one community's experience, that that in itself is not monolithic and it is so extensively diverse and that intersectional lens that you were just talking about, the term that Professor Crenshaw gave to all of us. You go back to the term of the theory of the intersectionality, it was labor of countless Black feminists, even before her. So looking at intersectionality with the lens of anti-oppression and anti-racism, I feel has been the lens that through which I worked and because I worked with a lot of diversity within a particular community, when I stepped back and decided to come and work in a location like Schleifer clinic. It didn't feel that complicated because I was just expanding on the same framework that I was already rooted in.
So being an intersectional feminist is not an active choice that I made. It is who I was. And, a story that I tell a lot of my students who I work with, is that I actually hadn't read the theory of intersectionality. I just understood it with my own personal experience. And then I actually read it. So, that I think is the piece that I want to maybe share with you as a part of reflection. That the identities, whether it's someone who's an immigrant woman or someone as a disabled woman, or are someone has a visible or an invisible identity. All of these concepts have a lot of fluidity and there was a lot of change that happens. And, again, not become isolating yourself and working with the group of people, and working with the experts of particular communities. And seeking help and seeking support, and be humble enough that you can run and get help when you need. But always work from the place of strength that once you know that this is the ask that you're going to make, then stand in your strength.
Radhika: Thank you, this has been helpful. I think you answered it beautifully. And I appreciate that you had mentioned that even within your work at the South Asian Legal clinic of Ontario there are so many intersecting identities.
Deepa: That reminds me, it's a blast from the past, actually I remember me and Farrah did a lot of trainings and we used to stand in front of the crowd and actually tell people we both are South Asians, but we are very different South Asians, right? “I have an experience of being South Asian” is very, very unique to which part of South Asia you come from. And actually it's an identity, it's a label given to us. As a South Asian woman who actually accepts the label right now, I have to tell you I didn't grow up knowing that I was South Asian. I actually understood that I lived in India, but my heritage is from Kashmir, which is a disputed and occupied part of the map. And then I left the country, came to UK and I was identified as Asian. I was like, okay, I'm Asian. I come from Asia. And then I came to Canada and I was told you're from South Asia. I'm like, okay, I'm South Asia. So that's why I said that identities are also fluid and they change with the context and where you are. South Asia is such a diverse interests, diverse identities, diverse language experiences. So it is not at all monolithic. Absolutely.
Radhika: That really, you know, I can relate to that a lot. So, I was born and raised in California. I am an American passport holder, but I think because of the way I was perceived I always identified as Indian. And it wasn't until I came to Canada that I kind of started identifying as American, though I have my feelings about that still. And it was largely because the accents are similar enough, they would assume I was Canadian. And if I mentioned, oh, I'm actually an international student, folks would be like, “wow, but you don't have an accent at all”. And I was like, well, I'm from the Silicon Valley. So I went on a field trip to Apple in fifth grade. I, you know, very different.
I think identity is and can be fluid. It reminds me even of something my professor said. So this was, I took this amazing course called women in diaspora and it was taught by an Indo-Caribbean woman from Guyana. And she was telling us how she loves the work she does, but when she goes home and talks about it, her parents are, you know, very proud of her, but they're like, “what the hell is an Indo Caribbean? We are Guyanese. I don't know what you're saying!” And so I think a lot of the terms maybe exist outside of those circles and we may accept them as we interact with those communities, but I feel like, when I'm with my family, with my DC community, I don't know that we're like, yeah, it's, all the South Asians together, that's not as natural to us. So I agree. I think identity can be very fluid, for ourselves and based on the environments we're in.
Deepa: Absolutely.
Farrah: So we're coming to the end of our conversation together. And I think the thing that I get really excited about is how much connections we have around this work and how many tactics we use that are similar and things that we keep needing to shift and change. But one of things I hear from both of you a lot is about community. How community is such an anchor in any of this work.
I want to understand a little bit more about how we do this work and how we dream together. ‘Cause dreaming for me is one of the ways in which I can keep doing gender justice conversations, gender justice organizing, gender justice work because we're visioning new ways into existence. So for both of you, what are possibilities that you're currently dreaming of? Things that don't exist right now, but you're manifesting them. You're bringing them to light. What would you love to see in your lifetime with gender justice organizing? And I know Deepa, you and I have talked about the goal oftentimes is to lose our job. Like we would love our lives not to be centered around gender-based violence, specifically, all the types that we see on a day-to-day basis. What are we hoping to emerge out of the possibilities that we are currently growing and nourishing in our communities?
Deepa: For past, maybe six years, the criminalization of the survivors of violence from immigrant communities, from racialized communities, from trans communities is something that has been a lot of the work that I have been doing at the clinic, and capacity building, and bringing support to the survivors. And on my vision board I would really want that shift to happen in three to four years. Like, I would want the system to shift around that understanding, of course, of control and the criminalization that happens and for all marginalized communities. As I said, immigrant refugee communities, non status, commonalities, racialized, Indigenous communities, you know, precarious workers, sex workers, trans communities.
I want to see a paradigm shift when it comes to the criminalization piece because it's something that is so state induced and so inherently incorrect and needs very little support in that paradigm shift because I also feel personally that we are at the cusp of that understanding. We are at that right time when people are understanding that the system, especially the justice system, needs to shift the way it was designed. And it was designed in a colonial way, and I feel like there is a critical mass that has been reached in that discussion that that shift can happen.
On a slightly longer tangent, or five to 10 years, maybe I would want all the organizations to actually be considered and accepted as the essential services that they're providing and given a sustainable way to run their programming. Which is not only about programming and working on a case-to-case basis, but also being advisors to the policy-makers and the law-makers, and actually work collaboratively to bring about that social change that we deserve. It needs to happen, right? Like, you know, that we can see it happen. It's all plausible and possible. It's not an impossible situation to imagine where we don't necessarily treat these services and these departments and in spaces and teams in spaces as, oh, that feel-good thing that we should be doing. Nonanana, we are an essential part, core fabric, of the system. And we should be honored and given funding and resources for the same.
I hope that by the time I retire, and I do hope that I do retire one day, that's another goal, that I don't leave the sector knowing that the people who are continuing work are going to work in the precarious circumstances that we have been working in. Where you don't know whether you will have a job next day or not, where you don't know whether you can afford benefits or not, where you don't know whether you can actually extend the contracts or not. And that really hurts me because as an ED of an organization, the reason it really hurts me is that we talk about economic equity, but we are working in a system which perpetuates precarity. And that really hurts me. And I would really want to see that change.
Farrah: I love those, Deepa, ‘cause they really speak to the fact that it's not just about doing the work, it's about being able to do it in a way that actually doesn't burn you out. That actually sustains the movement that welcomes new people but also keeps people who've been doing it for a long time and says you're valued. We need you here. Your voice is important. And the piece around criminalization, it's vital. We are seeing a lot of media reporting on high profile trials, where survivors are being sued for defamation because they spoke about sexual violence or domestic violence that they were subjected to. And that's one form of criminalization of survivors, the weaponization of the legal system to perpetuate harm and continue harm. So I too would love that. And I think Radhika, you spoke to that, do you wish for that as well? And what are things that you are kind of visioning into fruition right now? What are you looking to see happen in the gender justice movement?
Radhika: So, first of all, absolutely hoping for a world where survivors no longer have to fear retaliation for standing in their truth. Absolutely, I envision and dream of a world where survivors are allowed to own and reclaim their narratives in whatever way feels right to them on whatever timeline feels good for them. I would just love to see a massive shift in the way that we approach gendered violence through the criminal justice system. You know, again, less retaliation against survivors and then also maybe even more transformative justice in the way that we approach instances and, you know, allegations of gendered violence. Transformative justice to me is not only after violence has been perpetuated or committed, I think that can also look like having these conversations and educating people and giving them the resources and tools and terminology they need from a very young age. To me, I know there are several forms of gendered violence that exists outside of sexual violence, but I do think sexual violence is a big one and I know that it can be hard and daunting, but many important things are. And I don't know that gendered violence was, or sexual violence was, something that was ever covered with me in sex ed. It was very, you know, basic, very heteronormative, not very informative. I mean, without embarrassing myself too much. When I first started menstruating, I had no idea what was going on for two days. I was just in shame and it shouldn't be like that. We shouldn't feel embarrassed if you don't have the knowledge, that's okay. But you should know where to go to get it. You should know that you will not be shamed or judged for having these questions or for wondering these things. So I guess my vision is just more open, accessible knowledge, less fear and more community support. And then, of course, I mean we've all said this, but I cannot wait for this work to one day no longer be needed.
Farrah: I love that you talk about our bodies. You know, not knowing what menstruation is, for me, it was not knowing what a condom was or thinking that I invented masturbation at the age of… very early age, that I was just a genius. So I think it's, time and time again, making space for us to have knowledge and education is so important. I really appreciate you naming that Radhika, because it's something that gets overlooked or just seen as, oh yeah, education will do that, but not many resources are put towards it or it's not seen as real prevention. It's not seen as a cornerstone of addressing gender-based violence, but it's actually a huge part of it.
Radhika: I just need everyone to know that one of the reasons I'm so passionate about more expansive sex ed is because I never want anyone else to have to go back to school in fifth grade, have their entire grade find out that they've started their period and then have their crush come up to them, shake their hand and say congratulations on becoming a woman. I want better for us all. And that's why I fight!
Farrah: I want to thank both Deepa and Radhika for joining us today. It was so beautiful to hear both of you share about gender justice barriers, challenges, tactics, strategies, and nourishment, and how we can say that this work is built on a foundation of love and community.
You both do tremendous work in the community, and I'm so grateful to know both of you. And I look forward to the tiktok and dance collaboration between the both of you.
Deepa: Thank you for bringing us together.
Radhika: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me here today. And thanks to both of you. I am leaving this space nourished and feeling optimistic about the future of our work. To retirement!
Farrah: That's the goal now.
Thanks so much to our guests for joining us today and thank you for listening. We hope that what we talked about today will inspire you to plant seeds of change in your own communities. Visit us at possibilityseeds.ca and follow us on social media @PossibilitySeeds.