In this episode, Keneisha Charles, Jiaqing Wilson-Yang, and Rosalyn Forrester join us to discuss gender-affirming care, and how we can center trans and non-binary experiences in gender-based violence movements and support services.
In this episode, Keneisha Charles, Jiaqing Wilson-Yang, and Rosalyn Forrester join us to discuss gender-affirming care, and how we can center trans and non-binary experiences in gender-based violence movements and support services.
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CONTENT NOTE
This episode discusses transphobia and gender-based violence. Although there are no descriptions of sexual violence on this podcast, any conversation about sexual or gender-based violence can be hard to hear. Listen in a way that feels safe for you. If you need support, there are resources like sexual assault support centres in your community that you can reach out to. See our list here of supports available by province.
For peer and crisis support, Trans Lifeline is a great resource.
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FURTHER LEARNING
For more on trans-affirming gender-based violence services, see Courage To Act’s Resources For Gender Justice Advocates To Affirm And Support 2SLGBTQIA Gender-based Violence Survivors On Post-secondary Campuses.
trans-LINK Network is a wonderful resource with great guidelines for gender-affirming care.
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ABOUT OUR GUESTS
Keneisha Charles (they/them) is an organizer and artist who strives to dream and co-create liberation through all they do. As a fat, Black, queer, nonbinary, second-generation Caribbean, intersectionality is at the heart of their praxis. Their community work centres around Black liberation, collective care, environmental justice, disability justice, queer-trans liberation, and gender equity. As a poet, storyteller, and musician, they’re also passionate about the role of art in revolution.
Jiaqing Wilson-Yang (she/her) is a mixed-race (Chinese & Irish) trans woman and gender-based violence worker. She has worked with survivors of all genders, trans women affected by HIV, LGBTQ youth labelled with intellectual disabilities, trans youth and their parents, and under-housed youth for nearly 15 years. She is the award-winning author of Small Beauty (Metonymy, 2016), and is currently employed at Consent Comes First, the Office of Sexual Violence Support and Education, at Toronto Metropolitan University. She loves cats, dogs, all things Star Trek, and nerding out about gender-based violence.
Rosalyn Forrester walks with several identities: she is a woman of colour who was born with transexualism, a single mom of two beautiful daughters, a woman living with chronic pain, a woman loving women femme, an activist, a Pagan, an educator, a caregiver. Presently, Rosalyn works at Embrave, a VAW agency in Mississauga; as well as at East Mississauga Community Health Centre. She has organized a number of events for trans communities and spoken across Canada. Rosalyn has also been forced to become well-versed in Human Rights Law and Family Law as it pertains to people from within the Greater Trans Communities.
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CONNECT WITH POSSIBILITY SEEDS
Want to follow our gender justice work? Connect with us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn, and visit our website at possibilityseeds.ca.
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TRANSCRIPT
Read the episode transcript here.
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CREDITS
Created by Possibility Seeds. Project team: Farrah Khan, Emily Allan, Anoodth Naushan, Laura Murray, and Chenthoori Malankov-Milton. Produced by Vocal Fry Studios. Graphic design by Kitty Rodé with elements from Arzu Haider.
Farrah: Welcome to the first season of Possibility Seeds. We're so glad you're here. I'm Farrah Khan.
We made this podcast for anyone who wants to learn about gender justice activism in Canada. We're hosting multi-generational conversations with leaders who inspire us and fuel our belief that positive change is possible.
Today, I'm so excited to have Jiaqing Wilson-Yang, Rosalyn Forrester, and Keneisha Charles. Three gender justice leaders, advocates, and change makers. This conversation is focused on gender-affirming care, how to center voices, experiences and leadership of trans and gender non-binary folks who are navigating gender-based violence services.
We will explore some of the amazing work they've done and reflect on what it means to blossom in places we're told we're not supposed to bloom.
Before we get started. Can you share your names, pronouns and a bit about yourselves? I can go first. My name is Farrah Khan. I use she and her pronouns. I'm a gender justice advocate and I love this work.
Jiaqing: My name is Jiaqing Wilson-Yang. My pronouns are she and her. I'm a mixed Chinese and Irish trans woman and gender-based violence worker. I've been working with survivors of all genders, trans women affected by HIV, LGBTQ youth labeled with intellectual disabilities, trans youth and their parents, and under-housed youth for nearly 15 years. I also wrote a book called Small Beauty, published by Autonomy Press, in 2016. And currently I work at Consent Comes First at Toronto Metropolitan University.
Rosalyn: My name is Rosalyn Forrester. What do I do right now? I'm working and have been working with Embrave, which is a gender-based violence agency. So we have two shelters and I work in the outreach program. So all my clients, all 30-odd of them are out in the community and trying to navigate - that's actually what my role is, is to help them navigate the various systems out there. So we're actually working with people who identify as female, or identify as gender nonconforming. Basically the people who we don't really work with are cis males. We have them either in our shelter or out in the community. So I've been there since 2017, before that I was over at the 519, before that was at The Well in Hamilton. And I'm also working part-time in east Mississauga with the Trans-Activate program.
Keneisha: My name is Keneisha. My pronouns are they/them. I describe myself as an organizer and an artist. I'm fat, I'm Black, I'm queer, I'm non-binary, second generation Caribbean. And these identities all intersect with the work that I do. So in the community, I'm a co-founder of the Sankofa sustainability collective. I've done a lot of speaking. And most recently I've been working with the consent action team at Toronto Metropolitan University, where I helped to launch High School Too, which is a national student-led network to end sexual violence in secondary schools. So I'm also a student. I go to Toronto Metropolitan University, completing my Bachelor of Social Work with a double minor in Caribbean Studies and Disability Studies right now.
Farrah: So three powerhouses just casually on the show today. So excited to have you three with us. I wanna get into some questions that learn more about the work that you do. But before we do that, the why, because a lot of times this work can be really difficult, to address gender-based violence. It can be hard and it can be also really tiring. So what brings you joy or pleasure in doing this work? Like 15 years, 20 years, 30 years, people have been doing this work. What keeps you going? What brings you joy with this? Rosalyn, do you wanna start us off?
Rosalyn: So you're right. It really is pretty exhausting some days. My last Monday, actually, I think I was working about 11 hours. Things just happen, you know. I thought about the question joy. And I'm not sure that's the right word. ‘Cause the idea of, like, joy from having to work with people leaving or dealing with violence and abuse is the wrong word. I think a number of years ago when I had to figure a lot of this out myself, but sort of that paying it forward to help other people. And I guess that brings a little bit of extra purpose to my life. I guess I do get joy, having fun with people sometimes or learning of the new things that have just happened in their life. One of my clients is finished college and moving onto a new career and it's really kind of cool. I'll actually be working semi-alongside-of her. So it's kind of neat, you know, to see where people were and where they are now. I guess that's kind of my joy level.
Farrah: Keneisha, what about for you?
Keneisha: For me, being in community is where you find the joy. ‘Cause definitely this work can't be done alone. And I think it's finding those connections between people that has been joyful. Thinking ancestrally has been important for me, and sustaining in this work, and kind of embodying the role of being a future ancestor and thinking of the possibilities that come from that, and finding all the joy in that.
Jiaqing: Love that, that idea of being a future ancestor. The ways that I find joy or have found joy doing this work kind of mirror what both of you have said, Rosalyn and Keneisha. Seeing someone that you've worked with come by the office a few years later, or running into them out in Toronto and seeing them doing well, maybe they don't feel like they're doing well, but they've made changes and you can see those, how those changes have impacted them the way they carry themselves, the way they talk. There's a lot of joy in that. I'm also finding that as people know this is the kind of work that I do, sometimes people are like, “You talk about hard things all the time. That means that when I'm around you, I know that it's okay to be whoever I am.” So the kinds of connections that I have with people that I can build socially, they're different. And having an understanding of what gender-based violence really does to someone in the moment gives me so much more empathy for, definitely my ancestors. A little bit more for myself. That's a harder one. But there's an honesty to doing this kind of work that makes us talk about a thing people try to avoid talking about. And when we start to just acknowledge that it's here, I just think that really deepens our connection. So there's joy in that. And also humour. Some of the survivors I've worked with are hands down the funniest people I've ever met. There's a sense of humour that comes with it. That can be really great.
Farrah: I love that. I love the idea of being future ancestors. I love also being gentle to our ancestors as well for the things and choices that they had to make under very much hardships. And that healing that comes from that. In your experience, why is it important that we provide gender-affirming services for trans and non-binary community members?
Jiaqing: It's important that we provide gender-affirming services, so that anyone coming knows that they can be accepted as who they are when they're accessing services, especially around something like gender-based violence, which is such a personal, interpersonal expression of a systemic form of oppression. In terms of respecting the dignity of other humans, I think that's sort of like a baseline. If we're gonna be considering gender-based violence as violence that happens on the basis of someone's gender, then we need to be talking about how trans, non-binary, Two-Spirit, like anyone who has a gender that's seen as non-conforming, is impacted by this violence.
And I'm in school right now. And I really like to read the source material. Like when people are like, oh, Kimberlé Crenshaw, intersectionality. I'm like, well, I really should just go back and read what she said instead of your tweets. And one of the things she says was that when we don't acknowledge the differences within a group, we give rise to all kinds of tensions between different groups, right? So, yeah, there's differences among women, there's differences among trans people, there's differences among survivors. Great. That makes us stronger. So let's acknowledge that, work with it, and then we can come together in that difference versus, you know, being like, “Your body doesn't quite fit this. Yeah, no, we think that it's bad that this violence happened to you, but we can't help you.” I've really been thinking about that a lot lately. And I think it not just enriches the lives of the trans and non-binary survivors who are coming to get services, but it just enriches the whole space.
Farrah: I wanna flow that into asking a question of Keneisha, because your work is really about dreaming. And that's one of the things I love about your work. Dreaming about different worlds possible, writing, procreating beautiful new visions of justice and liberation. What's the role of storytelling and art and bringing about more just futures where gender-affirming services are available to all of our communities?
Keneisha: I think I really lean into art through this work and that dreaming, like you said, because I feel like we don't always have all the answers. Like when we talk about, what does a world without gender based violence look like? I don't think we know exactly what that looks like in every way. Especially as, like, someone who's young and like someone who's still learning, there's still a lot of answers I don't have, but what I can say is what I want it to feel like, or what I hope it feels like, what I know it'll feel like. And I think art allows us to explore those feelings and to flesh out from that feeling, what can it look like then? And more of the tangible things so that we can work backwards from that vision, and co-creating it in the present together.
Farrah: I love the idea of co-creation and the idea of creating the future that we want, especially in the world we're in right now that keeps telling us that our boxes and ourselves can be so much smaller than what we can dream of. And pushing back on that with other dreams and ideas. Rosalyn, you too have been dreaming a lot and also putting things into action. As someone who's been a longtime activist in the community, doing a range of things from grassroots organizing to policy work, healthcare, police reform, legal action, and advocacy, even with yourself in a difficult legal system that's full of so many barriers. Can you tell us about the experience and what you've learned in that process?
Rosalyn: What I've learned is the systems are flawed and broken. What I've experienced is directly how flawed they are. So, you get to take how that affects you and take that into your work and to be able to understand how that affects other people who've also been traumatized by the various different systems. By the health system when they go in for blood work, or when they go in for anything and there's a wrong pronoun, or, although they've gone up and they've said, “Hey, this is the name I'm using. I know my health card says this, but this is the name I'm using.” And they still turn around and will use the wrong name and wrong pronoun. There's a really big impact that many people don't understand or refuse to understand on that. That past experience of seeing up close and personal how those sort of things impact a person has actually helped me be a better advocate for those people out there.
Farrah: What are some of the barriers that exist to providing gender-affirming services for trans and non-binary community members?
Rosalyn: Okay. Let's find an agency or agencies who are doing the work, and let's see how informed they are. And hopefully how their education keeps expanding, as opposed to “I've got the one day training” type thing and “I'm done,” and then connecting to other agencies. Or connecting with victim witness services or like all these different things. The courthouses, everything, is set up in this way that is, well, it's very colonialized, right? This idea that everybody must follow a certain way of being, otherwise they are othered. They don't get the respect, the treatments, what they should be getting, what other white cis people may be getting and should expect, everybody should expect. When you go into a doctor's office or you go to a hospital, that they're not focusing on other parts of your body. When it's a broken arm, right? Or when you're going in, you're dealing with depression or something else. They're not focusing on this whole idea of, “Oh, well you're trans and therefore that's your issue.” No, the issue is something else that you went in for. It's a fucked up system. And there are so many people that are in charge of those systems that are not willing to kind of let go. It's great to see from where I was 20 odd years ago, to where things are now, where you're learning, and you're seeing this stuff in universities and colleges and high schools, and policies are slowly changing. It's just about taking those policies and putting them into actual proper practice by hearing, listening, and working with community members. That's the biggest thing that's lacking is agencies not working with community members to find out what they need to be doing. They should be doing.
Farrah: Rosalyn, is there anything that surprised you about doing this work?
Rosalyn: No, because as I said, I came into it differently. I, I sort of used to call myself a reluctant activist. Shit just kept happening and it didn't stop. And I felt I have no alternative but to actually be the person who does something.
Farrah: Jiaqing, is there anything that's surprised you in this work? Or as Rosalyn said, has not surprised you?
Jiaqing: I was doing a placement at a rape crisis center where I was counseling folks. It was one of the first times that I was working in an environment that wasn't specifically for LGBT folks. I wasn't sure how clients were gonna react to me, how staff were gonna react to me. You know, it was an all gender space, which I was glad for. I was working with men, cis women, trans folks, trans men, trans women, non-binary folks. I was quite pleasantly surprised that the survivors that came through the door, they were not concerned with what my gender was. They were concerned with talking about the violence that they had survived and moving through that. For me, that really solidified the importance of just being able to be in this space, and less so the importance of what my genitals are or what my experiences have been leading up to me being there. What matters is, do I have skills as a counselor? Can I develop those skills as a counselor? Can I work with people with empathy?
Farrah: We're gonna move now into a section where we have questions that you've brought. Keneisha, we're really inspired by your advocacy and activism. I know Jiaqing has a question she would love to ask you.
Jiaqing: Definitely. Keneisha, collective care, Black liberation and gender equality is really important to you. It should be really important to all of us. I'm wondering if you can tell us more about what the Sankofa Sustainability Collective is, and why that work matters for BIPOC trans and non-binary people.
Keneisha: Yeah, the Sankofa Sustainability Collective is an organization that I helped co-found, I guess about four years ago now. And the name Sankofa comes from the Akan people in what's now Ghana. And Sankofa is a symbol and part of a longer phrase that basically teaches the importance of looking back in order to inform the future. So talking about learning from our ancestors, learning from our histories, and also making sure that no one is left behind. That these histories aren't left behind, that communities aren't left behind. And so the collective is focused mainly around environmental sustainability, but also recognizing that it's not a single issue. For example, talking about gender equity and sustainability, talking about things like resource extraction projects, like mining and oil rigs and how that increases gender-based violence in communities, especially against Indigenous women and Two-Spirit people. So it's about bridging those gaps, not leaving one issue out and bringing all of ourselves to the work that we do, which I think is really important when you're multiply marginalized. When you don't just experience one axis of oppression. And the work that I do with Sankofa and in general is really focused on centering these intersections and creating spaces where we don't have to leave one out. ‘Cause I know I've been in these activist spaces where it's like my Blackness wasn't something that was welcome, or my queerness wasn't something that was welcome. And so really trying to change the narrative around that and bringing all of ourselves to this work.
Farrah: Rosalyn, it’s always so wonderful listening and learning from you. I know Jiaqing has a question for you as well. Jiaqing with all the good questions.
Jiaqing: I’ve got all the questions. Rosalyn, our identities, especially as trans and non-binary folks play a big part in how we access services. For example, if a trans service user comes, they're often likely to share that they're also trans. There's a shared sense of a lived experience in systems of navigation that we move through. In your experience, what, if any opportunities exist to celebrate those moments of shared space and lived experience? And can these be vulnerable moments for you and the client?
Rosalyn: Oh, wow. So I actually have a couple clients that fit within our spectrum, which for me has actually been cool because I've been able to work with them probably differently than other people might be able to. It sort of goes back to what I said before. We all have the right to be respected equally and to access supports, but we also have to understand our place in needing those supports. And sometimes we need frankness. We need somebody to speak to us without it being patronizing. I'm not a big, huge Toronto pride or pride thing, but I think it would be great - we need something for us. That’s specifically for us, and not like a TDOR event, something that celebrates who we are as people. We have phenomenal history out there. We live everywhere. We are everywhere. We've been everywhere and we've been around forever, but that's never celebrated. And that's never shared with each other.
Farrah: What I love about these conversations is it’s an ability to understand not only how our organizing and work on gender-based violence is limited, but also what possibilities are available there. And Keneisha has a great question on that. Keneisha. You wanna ask your question of Jiaqing and Rosalyn?
Keneisha: I would love to. What I'm interested in is, how does affirming our intersecting identities like race, fatness, disability class, help us to create gender-affirming spaces? And how do we ensure that these gender-based violence services are not performative when we're affirming both gender and our other intersections?
Jiaqing: Yeah, I think affirming our intersecting identities not only helps us create gender-affirming spaces, I think it's integral to creating a gender-affirming space. And because gender is such a cultural thing, gender is directly connected to religion and ethnicity and race. So much of how people conceptualize what a woman is - not us, of course, but like other folks - has to do with, what can your body do? Can your body produce children? Da, da, da. It becomes directly connected with disability, right? Like there's just straight lines connecting all of those different identities. And I think if we want a gender-based violence movement to be effective, we need to talk about how gender-based violence impacts a whole range of bodies. You need to have your services audited by the service users. If you're noticing that you're working with only one kind of community, let's say you're working with a lot of one racialized group who have disabilities, but you're not working with another group of people. Why aren't they coming? Is that service available somewhere else? Do they wanna come to see you? Can you support someone else who's providing that service? Like, how do we do that? And that requires humility, right? That requires being able to have people tell us that, “Well, you're doing a bad job right now, okay?” And being like, “Okay, thanks for letting me know, what can I do differently?” It's a long process. Otherwise it just becomes performative. It just becomes another word that we use to make ourselves look good.
Farrah: We purposely made this podcast to ensure that there was multi-generational conversations, ‘cause too often with organizing, we're almost reinventing the wheel all the time or hearing from the same conversation, but just different players sometimes. We wanted to make sure we have conversations where we're hearing from folks from lots of different parts of this work. And so Rosalyn, you have a question for Keneisha.
Rosalyn: I've been an activist for a long time and it is easy to get stuck in one way of doing things ‘cause it's working so why change it, right? So from your perspective as a young activist, what is the most important thing that you like, those of us who are older to learn from you, and what's the one thing you think you do better and different from the way activists on organizing was being done like a decade or several decades ago?
Keneisha: Yeah, I feel very grateful to get to be in intergenerational spaces because I don't think that's something that we always get to do. And I don't know if there's, like, one specific thing that I think one generation does better than the other, but something that I would really love to see more intergenerational dialogue on and sharing between is how we sustain this work. So, I've been doing activist work since I was probably 14, 15. I'm only 20 now. And it's already feeling like a lot and talking to my peers and being in community spaces, there is a lot of burnout, even though for a lot of us, we're still young. And we, in the grand scheme of things, haven't been doing this for a long time. And so I think a big struggle that I find in spaces that I organize with is how do we keep doing this work that we really care about, but also take care of ourselves and not be overwhelmed by it. Yeah. And sustain these relationships as we grow. And as we learn, and as our capacities change.
Farrah: A lot of nods.
Rosalyn: You know, I experienced my first burnout back in 2000… I think it was around 9, 10. I was done. I couldn't do anything. I was, I was done. I was spent. I think we need to listen to each other and I think we need to sometimes accept the fact - it's really hard for us older people, okay, me - to listen to somebody that’s saying “No, no, no. You know what? You've done that, change it. It needs to be adjusted.” We all need to listen to each other and we need to find a way, um, to not just be the ones doing the work, ‘cause this is what completely burns us out. Unless we find a way to spread this load across. And I think we're gonna be facing a lot more coming up. Now, you know, as things change south of the border, we'll eventually have an election here and we can face a lot of the same things that they're facing there. They're probably going to be trying to push back equal marriage. They're gonna be trying a lot of things there. These are things we need to be ready for and be ready to work as a larger, broader team and get together.
Farrah: I wanna ask one follow up to that because there's so many attacks on trans people right now and not just in the United States, but in Canada. So often the gender-based violence movement is like, we're dealing with violence against women, partner abuse, domestic violence forced marriage - the violence against women movement is very much about oftentimes cis women - about intimate partner violence, and doesn't see the connections to larger forms of violence, systemic violence, street harassment, the daily forms of humiliation and harm that is perpetuated against trans people. What's one thing that the violence against women movement needs to get it together about?
Rosalyn: The issue is just the money, right? The federal government hasn't, like, put out that 700 and odd million dollars? That they're supposed to put forward to support Indigenous women who are fleeing abuse. Like either people, all organizations do all this for free? Not happening. So how, yeah. Money, like, I don't know, like we need to get rid of all these politicians and I dunno if people need to run for office, but we need to get the right people in there. That actually care and that actually have the ability and desire to make changes. How we do it, I don't know.
Jiaqing: I think that there's either a willful ignorance, or people are too tired or burnt out, or always chasing out fires, constantly in crisis, you know, underfunded. Especially I'm thinking about rape crisis centers. Like, most people work so hard, people working in shelters. Like Rosalyn, like, just always both food on the ground, running around. I think the one thing would be for us to, like, go back to, well, why did we start this? Why did people start violence against women's movements? Why did people start rape crisis centers? And how do we bring that into where we are now with the truths that we know when we think about gender-based violence and misogynistic violence. When you start to think about misogyny as a tool of control, that benefits cis male supremacy, patriarchy, and that punishes anything that goes outside of the norm or threatens to punish anything that goes outside of the norm. If we start to really just think about that, then to me, it becomes very clear that all genders and any sexuality that isn't a very specific kind of heterosexuality is targeted in similar ways. And that if we are only thinking about women as people who are born with vaginas and uteruses, you're kind of just doing what misogyny is telling us, what sexism is telling us, that women are valuable because they can produce more children. If we're able to take a breath and be like, who does misogyny target? Can we work together to combat misogyny and patriarchy? Then, yeah, the next logical step is to be working with all genders. It means to be considering how gay men are impacted by gender-based violence. That also takes power away from men's rights organizations who slip into this vacuum that we leave by not supporting those survivors. And I'm not saying we're to blame for that violence, but I think that we can do something to help to stop it. I know it’s easier said than done and maybe a little bit more abstract. But, I think we just play into those roles of what men and women are supposed to be, when we only talk about cis women as survivors of gender-based violence.
Keneisha: Yeah. And I think it's important to see our liberation as interconnected and how, when we address and when we target transphobia anti-transness, it also helps and targets misogyny and how that's wrapped up in there as well. Coming from Black feminist thought, liberation is tied together.
Farrah: I'm so happy this conversation happened. As Keneisha said, talking about “No one is free until everyone's free,” which is from civil rights leader Fannie Lou Hamer. What excites me about this conversation is the reminder that our movement isn't a movement until everyone's a part of it. And everyone feels affirmed, cared for and supported. Because we can't say that we're supporting survivors when some survivors feel left behind. And I wanna thank the three of you for really raising how important it is to be not just inclusive, but affirming of trans and gender non-binary people. At Possibility Seeds, our work is really built on this idea that we can dream new visions of gender justice into existence, which I think the three of you have been doing for a long time. Since the age of 13, 14, for some of us. I wanna know from each of you, what possibilities are you currently dreaming of?
Jiaqing: I want to see a shift in gender-based violence, VAW spheres moving towards all gender work. All genders, and all bodies can be harmed in that way. And when we start to acknowledge that, I can't even imagine what it would look like when we start to acknowledge that, but I know that there would be a big change. Like there would be a cultural shift in thinking about how this stuff happens and why. That would be something I would love to see.
Keneisha: The future that I'm dreaming of is one of safe childhoods and safe teens and safe adolescence and youth. I think, especially these past few months, working with High School Too, and hearing the experiences of youth across the country and reflecting on our own experiences too, as leaders in this, seeing a lot of the ease and the safety that was taken from us in some of these younger years. And so I'm dreaming of spaces where we don't have to be advocating for ourselves and for our peers in our high schools.
Farrah: I don't know why that made me emotional, but it made me so emotional to hear that idea of safe childhoods. Yeah. This idea that we deserve and get to plan our futures, to have futures that are joyous and pleasurable. Rosalyn, what are you dreaming of into existence?
Rosalyn: Wow. Um, I'm sitting here listening to both of you and I'm like, “Oh yeah, that sounds cool. Oh, wow. That sounds really cool.” I sit down and I think, “So how did I get into this whole mess?” Yeah, I guess it really did have to do with kids, at the very beginning. Probably will never happen in my day, but it would be a nice thing to see where it is not an issue, who you are, what you look like. All that stuff is not an issue. It won’t happen in my time, but a time where it really doesn't matter who you are.
Farrah: Safe futures for children, and a world where gender-based violence services are affirming to all genders sounds like pretty great things to dream of and build.
Rosalyn: It would put me outta work, but that's okay.
Farrah: I always say Rosalyn, the goal is to put us out of work.
Rosalyn: Exactly!
Farrah: Thanks so much to our guests for joining us today. And thank you for listening. We hope that what we talked about today will inspire you to plant seeds of change in your own communities.
Visit us at possibilityseeds.ca and follow us on social media @PossibilitySeeds. Stay tuned for our next episode.